Last month, about 80 Rainier Valley neighbors attended Senator Adam Kline’s town hall meeting in Columbia City to discuss a variety of issues, including how state budget cuts will hurt the community health and public dental clinics in South Seattle, the controversial Transit Oriented Development (TOD) bill that recently died in Olympia, and income taxes.
Big thanks to Tom Karwaki for sharing a follow-up e-mail from Sen. Kline:
Given the near-unanimity at the Town hall the other day on the issue of taxes, and in answer to your questions, I thought I’d share a little scuttlebutt on the issue.
There is some statewide polling going on now on the issue of taxes, given the clear push to send a tax package to the voters along with a “No New Taxes” version of the budget. As I explained on Saturday, the feeling here is that we should actually have an all-cuts budget in effect for the period from July 1, 2009 (the beginning of the 2009-11 biennium) until the tax-package is adopted by the voters, presumably in November 2009.
Sad to say, but some voters need to actually experience for a few months what that budget would do to them before they understand the need for taxes. In fact, a dose of reality may be what it takes to rid the state of the mentality that Tim Eyman so easily exploits.
The questions, then, are what kinds of taxes (or better, taxing whom?) and how much.
These will be the central policy questions before the Ways and Means Committees in both houses, and I will have a voice in the debate in the Senate committee. The statewide polling is being done by progressive interest groups, not the caucus, and the data apparently—this is still rumor here—show some bare majority for a generalized “tax increase” up to $1.5 billion statewide. This apparently doesn’t differentiate between the types of taxes, apparently a very preliminary poll that will pave the way for another with more sophisticated questions. The polling data won’t illuminate a better policy, but our job is not getting the best possible package—it’s getting the best possible package that the voters will approve. With that as our goal, we need to listen to the voters before, not just after, we put a referendum out there for them to vote on.
I understand that there will be a motion to pass a resolution at the next full meeting of the 37th District Democrats, asking the three of us legislators to vote only for a budget or referendum that fills half the $9 billion hole with a tax increase or series of tax increases—that is, $4.5 billion in taxes. I don’t know whether the proposal would differentiate between forms of taxation.
Personally, speaking only for myself, I would be okay with a $4.5 biennial tax increase if the thrust were to tax the discretionary income of the wealthy, who have escaped state taxation almost entirely since the repeal of the MVET in 1999, and who have never had to pay a state income tax.
But the preliminary polling data is that the state’s voters aren’t at $4.5 billion, but only at one-third of that. We can (and may) set the referendum amount slightly higher, but we will do so at the peril of getting a No vote, and having to wait several months before we can get another referendum out, as we’ve done with a series of transportation referenda. That exercise reduced public faith in the process, not to mention delayed funding transportation while costs rose.
I suggest we act responsibly, especially while we have the entire state living under the all-cuts version of the budget. While I may end up voting for taxes greater in revenue than $1.5 billion, I will keep an eye on a successful referendum, rather than simply go for the highest possible amount.
Please feel free to pass this e-mail to residents of the 37th, and to members of the 37th District Democrats.
Senator Adam Kline represents the 37th District Democrats. Photo Courtesy of Adam Kline
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{ 42 comments }
Why does Santa Claus want to raise taxes?
Kline said:
“Sad to say, but some voters need to actually experience for a few months what that budget would do to them before they understand the need for taxes. In fact, a dose of reality may be what it takes to rid the state of the mentality that Tim Eyman so easily exploits.”
It’s precisely this sort of arrogance and dishonest political maneuvering that keeps Tim Eyman in business.
God help the 37th District.
@1 – that’s a very funny comment.
More substantively, it seems odd – to say the least – for Sen. Kline to gauge willingness of WA citizens to pay new taxes at the gross revenues level (i.e., $4.5B in new taxes v. $1.5B in new taxes). That’s just not a reasonable measure of willingness to pay taxes.
Much more reasonable to describe particular tax proposal and be particular about who would pay it. Small income tax paid only by millionaires sure makes sense to me, in part because I’m not a millionaire. The number of billions raised by such a tax isn’t really as important to me as what proposed use is – education, yes; roads in Eastern WA, no.
Baaad Santa!
Given that we now know 100% that the current economic crisis was fraudulent and intentional, American citizens now need to collectively refuse paying any taxes until the government that works for us decides to work for us again. Any politician who pretends the current crisis has anything to do with innocent citizens, and who feels citizens need to pay more taxes to cure this problem — that politican needs to be removed from office immediately, since they are only part of the problem, rather than part of the solution.
Evidence –
Exhibit A:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3pwAFohWBL4
Exhibit B:
http://www.pbs.org/moyers/journal/04032009/watch.html
“Medita Wheatley” for 37th District Senator, please !!!
(Thanks for the links, especially the YouTube link.)
Thanks for your kind words. After actively participating in the recent presidential election, and after seeing firsthand how corrupt and manipulated the entire election process is (it is in no way allowed to be subjected to a democracy), I have no intention of running for any office in the US. Most of our politicians in the US are now required to buy into a ready-made agenda or they have zero chance of becoming elected — it’s really that simple. Anyone who still believes we live in a democracy/republic is very naive.
The power belongs to the largest international corporations and also the private interests who collectively own the World Bank, the IMF, the BIS, and the central banks of most countries (including the US). If you want to possess any real power, don’t become a politician — become affiliated with non-fiat currencies (aka, the real cause of the American Revolution).
Well said! Such wisdom is rare —may I call you ‘Medita’?
I couldn’t agree more. Ever since moving to southeast Seattle I’ve experienced first-hand how government claims the right to restrict democracy among the poorest and most vulnerable citizens. The behavior, attitudes, and actions of our city government in relationship to southeast Seattle residents is different than the city’s behavior, attitude, and actions in Seattle’s more affluent neighborhoods. I’ve lived in both worlds and the differences are stark.
There is a clear double-standard that is directly related to voting and democracy at least as much as race. City leaders (who shall remain nameless here) have told me to my face; “Southeast Seattle doesn’t vote in numbers large enough to threaten any politician. So why should I pay more attention to YOUR issues when you didn’t elect me?” Shocking? Yes. Understandable? Yes.
I’m not ready to abandon southeast Seattle yet. We’ve got to get more folks registered to vote for the election in November. We cannot expect ‘change’ if we do nothing to deserve it.
Medita, please write more —and more often.
I agree that much of our political system is beholden to larger, more powerful interests (although not JUST corporations), at the end of the day we still vote, or did I miss something? A perennial legislator means that (a) the constituency is very satisfied or (b) nobody cares/is educated enough to vote otherwise. So blaming the corrupt system seems a bit shallow considering that we can actually vote still.
As far as these taxes go, I’m surprised to see it laid out so starkly – I was pretty sure that’s what they were doing to begin with — cutting important programs to convince people to raise taxes.
Unfortunately, my trust level is pretty low – I’m willing to bet that the legislature purposely puts important programs on the chopping block so they can justify raising taxes. I would like to see a summary of the budget and a list of the priority programs and how those will be funded. I can probably handle 2 – 4 years of minor road degradation if it helps pay for Basic Health. Or look for less-expensive school lunch options to better pay teachers. But I worry that here, they specifically target feel-good programs, knowing that they can say “we passed a no-new-tax budget, but the People voted for their own tax increase.” So convenient. So I would simply like to see what they are affording in this budget – prove to me that the most critical cuts are because there are no better options.
As far as tax revenues, the income-tax-on-the-filthy-rich presents some challenges. First, even Sen. Kline insinuates that that group of people just isn’t contributing their fair share (at the state level). But I imagine that most of those top-earners have substantially higher property taxes, and generally pay more into the consumption-tax system. What he’s really saying is that he wants to get hold of more of their money earlier. Second, we already have tax streams in place on consumption and real property (which really strikes me as odd – having something of value means you need to constantly pay the government to keep it). So adding an income tax means I am taxed when I earn, taxed when I spend, and taxed when I put the money into my house/car/etc… (yes, I know we repealed the Car Tax; although Mr. Kline seems pretty unhappy about that). So the same money is taxed 3 different times. Finally, once an income tax is levied, they will probably not have to seek voter approval to apply it down to lower income classes. And I have no doubt that that would happen over time.
So, I will consider voting for an income tax if it coincides with a complete removal of the sales tax system (with the possible exceptions of Excise taxes on the purchase of large-value-items). And I would like to see transparency and accountability in their budget proposals. Otherwise, it seems like just so much hot air.
*TNS Financial Services, a market research and polling firm, ranks the nation’s top 10 counties with the highest number of millionaire households, which have a net worth of at least $1 million, not including the value of a resident’s home.
This was from May 2008
No. 10
King County, Washington
Number of millionaire households: 68,390
Percentage of state’s millionaire households: 33%
Percentage of nation’s millionaire households: 1%
Let’s start with a discussion about term limits then move on to taxes.
Erich -
My understanding is that State’s expenditures for roads (maintenance and construction) is funded primarily through the gas tax. State Constitution’s 18th amendment restricts gas tax revenues exclusively for roads.
The Governor has a do-it-yourself budget calculator at http://www.governor.wa.gov/priorities/budget/calculator.asp. You might also check out budget FAQ at http://www.governor.wa.gov/priorities/budget/faq.asp.
I don’t pretend to understand the nitty gritty of all the billions of expenditures. But I do think this information provides a flavor of the major initiatives that State government is responsible for… and how hard a job it is to decide which good programs will no longer get money. Your choices: K-12 education v. higher ed v. health & human services. Those are the biggest by $ spent. Which isn’t a priority? Which one has costs that don’t grow naturally and reasonably just with increasing population each year (to mention but one obvious factor among other good reasons)?
The Gov’s calculator assumes no new taxes. But if the old revenues aren’t sufficient to address the real and pressing needs in these critical categories, I conclude that we need more revenues.
– Dan
Santa should vote for giving the middle class ‘coal’ credits and give coal to the rich.
I do not believe the rich pay more in consumption tax; consumption tax is a regressive tax so it hits every income bracket, especially the middle class and poor. And the middle class already get hit with payroll taxes as well.
Also, Santa shouldn’t like sales tax because that lowers the amount of gifts he can give to all of our kids.
Personally, I think the government should evaluate all of their institutions and programs for waste, before raising taxes. Shit, that is what every business is doing right now; evaluating all of their cost of goods, administrative overhead, determining why they are not making a profit.
We do not demand this from our government, efficiency, we just expect services and raising taxes to pay for the services if there is a budget crunch.
Exactly right, “Briktru”. Kline doesn’t get it.
What’s wrong with pursuing efficiency? Why not have greater oversight, means testing, and performance audits? Why not look for waste, excess, and duplication and eliminate them before cutting services?
Kline would rather play games with us, holding valued services hostage, then raising our taxes in exchange for restoring services. Aren’t there laws prohibiting blackmail? No wonder Tim Eyman is so popular?
Briktru for Senator, 37th District!
@Dan,
Thanks for that info – I like that budget calculator page, and I feel better about seeing that it’s not too hidden and shrouded in mystery. That pulls me off my soap box a bit! And yeah, the transportation part occurred to me a while after the fact.
I have just too many jumbled thoughts to build a coherent post here.
But yeah, we have hard decisions to make, and I don’t think saying “We’ll show you — see what happens when you think you don’t want to pay anymore taxes!” is the right way to go.
As far as the regressivity of a consumption tax — I agree with that (I think it’s pretty obvious). But we need to be careful when we define “more.” Do the wealthier income brackets pay more raw $$$ in consumption tax? Probably. I think the ‘regressive’ tag means that lower brackets pay a disproportionately higher percentage, even though the raw dollars may still be less (regardless, regressive is still grossly unfair).
About the people “missing services”: one problem that may occur is that the people expected to fund those services aren’t often the people using those services. I’m pretty sure that I pay for the free- and reduced-lunch program in our schools. And barring a severe tragedy, I probably will not ever make use of that program. My family is insured, so we don’t need the Basic Health services. Of course, the ‘regressive’ conversation above means that my assertion may not be true.
See – too many disjointed thoughts!
ah, Erich,
You underestimate the resourcefulness of the affluent and wealthy. I’m making generalities here, so this statement of course paints the wealthy with a broad brush. I’m sure some do pay 100% consumption tax and may pay a higher number of absolute dollars than the 95%, however it is disproportionate nonetheless.
But their resourcefulness comes with the ability to afford tax havens, really good tax lawyers and CPA’s, or jaunt off to Oregon for a weekend, or get a buddy who works for a company to get you a really good deal and direct from wholesale, gifts, cronyism…you get the picture.
My favorite example however is the Westport Shipyard (Westport, Wa) where they make luxury yachts for $8MM-$20MM a pop. The actual sale takes place 20 miles off the coastline which is beyond the state jurisdiction to tax that sale. Everytime one of those babies sells, the state misses out between $664k-$2.5MM in tax revenue.
Anything for the rich, baby.
So we can’t raise consumption tax, that’s not fair. We can’t raise taxes on the middle class and lower income, that’s not fair. And small businesses are burdened too much already, so that’s not fair. Manufacturers like Boeing are saying that state payroll taxes (L&I and SUI) are too much and they may need to go to a southern state. What’s a state to do?
I think Santa needs to go evaluate his workshop and elves and see if they are operating efficiently first before saying 1) we’re going to suffer and 2) we’re going to raise taxes. What bullshit!!!
Please don’t tell me Santa is going to run unopposed again. 37th Precinct needs some serious change!!!
“Briktru” said; “The actual sale takes place 20 miles off the coastline which is beyond the state jurisdiction to tax that sale. Everytime one of those babies sells, the state misses out between $664k-$2.5MM in tax revenue.”
Do you know this for certain, Briktru? Why should distance have anything to do with paying tax? Neither you nor I can purchase a vehicle out of state and avoid paying sales tax in Washington. That loophole was closed. How is it possible that luxury yachts can escape this tax? Even if sold in international waters, the owner must resides on land someplace? The tax should be paid where the owner resides. If your information is correct, then Santa should be held accountable for closing the loophole before he takes steps to raise the sales tax, making Washington State’s tax system even more regressive.
It’s a known fact in the town. I’ve verified it with their employees. It is true. I’m sure its a “don’t-ask-don’t-tell” policy with the governor’s blessing. It’s not just Gregoire, its been this way for years and years.
They do similar things for other corporations like Boeing. It’s called: corporate welfare.
Excuse me, ‘Briktru’, while I step away from my computer and go over to the wall and begin to smash my head repeatedly into the wall with enough force to induce unconsciousness.
Where can I get one of the t-shirts that says “Eat the Rich” ?
Yes n No. It is intended as an out for non-residents. Wa state residents use the loophole but have to keep their boat out of the state, as soon as the vessel enters Wa waters a ‘use tax’ applies. So they all moor their boats in BC.
The yacht moorage thing in BC is true. I know people who live in Magnolia who choose to dock their boat in Victoria.
“My favorite example however is the Westport Shipyard (Westport, Wa) where they make luxury yachts for $8MM-$20MM a pop.”
Something tells me Briktru may have one of those yachts herself, and avoided those taxes just like she says. Then sat for a spell in Westport’s Mermaid Deli and laughed at all the poor suckers in the world.
Or maybe don’t own yourself, but take a few rides now and then on the Companion? Sweet!
Ratzby-
Are you talking about the Kindred and that offshore display of ‘how to f^@$ the IRS’ back a few years? Well I say until we have a tax system that makes sense such that, oh say, the future Head of the Treasury, doesn’t make mistakes that are defended in his appointment as ‘honest and understandable’… Well I’m squeezing my butt through any loophole I find, man! Then I’ll shake my booty in a dance ‘o happy for the better of it! As long as its legal I’m not casting stones at anyone else either. Of course I’m a boater. But let’s just say my boat’s “luxury tax” would be satisfied with a half a sixer and a bag of chili cheese fritos.
Wow, Ratzby. You got me. I typed that while I was on my luxury yacht. As I am typing now, I am moored up in Victoria, avoiding the taxman.
You’re brilliant!
Well than, make that half a sixer of Kokanee, Briktru!
Will you be joining us via satellite this evening?
Kokanee! Wow, that is a ‘briktru’ beer alright. My yacht steward always turns his nose up when he serves me that, but I like to remind him that we all got our start in modest beginnings.
Yes, what time is the satellite conference? Are we doing poker again tonight? Last time I remember it was a $5k minimum…still the case?
Now, now, Briktru. That’s so ghetto!
You know the big blind is 10K, the SMALL blind is 5K! Tryin’ to throw ’round your nickel game. cute.
Yeah, and please tell Jeeves not to give me the stink eye for wearing my Manolos on the fiberglass, he just has to know that’s how I get down, baby. I wouldn’t be caught dead in keds. Besides he drank all the single malt last time…
Y’all are funny.
And if you take me salmon fishing or whale watching, I’m sure we’ll all have a good laugh over this.
And then I’ll trash the Mayor, too. Deal?
Sail away! (Randy Newman)
Well I know! That’s why I was checking because $5k seemed so small.
You know, the “help” is just so funny about things. Don’t you know that it doesn’t matter what beer you drink. Beer is beer! But single malts and shoes…that is a different story. Puh-lease! My Birkin bag fits at least a case of Kokanee.
Ratzby- Deal. We don’t even have to TRASH him, we can just giggle at his expense… And distribute voting cards to all of SE Seattle saying: “Richard Conlin, Adam Kline, and Greg Nickels DON’T LIKE YOU.” Then we’ll grill our salmon and drink our surprisingly-better-than Coors or Bud, Canadian counterpart imbibement. Damn those happy, simple canooks…
Briktru- Thank GOD, for a minute I thought I’d have to put on those blue doctor’s feet covers on my babies..
babies..can’t…B.R.E.A.T.H.E…
Hey, I’m heading toward Westport on Sunday.
Anyone want to go for a ride?
uh
well, I guess I don’t need a ride on a retired tugboat to find reasons to dislike Nickelsndimesme, but maybe it would work on someone…
So lemmie settle something once and for all, Ratz. Do you support the jolly green giant, er..(cough, phlegm) ex-CUSE me! um, I meant…our Mayor? Or do you simply feel him unfairly pinheaded..COUGH COUGH, more phlegm, PAR-DON ME, there I go again! I meant, pinPOINTED of course…
Seriously, though. Are we too tough on him? If so, where does the buck stop?
All I can figure is, we’ve had quite a ride. Up until a couple years ago, we were rolling in it. Yeah, we’ve had a couple bad years here, but man, THE DECADE before it! The real estate excise taxes, the property taxes, the sales taxes, the B&O taxes!!! If we weren’t able to sock something away during the single most steep-ass killer tubular wave of the century!!! We’re seriously already out of $$? I’m like, MC Hammer in ’95 turning to my manager…still wearin’ my silk blousson pantaloons… WHERE THE F*(% DID ALL THAT JACK GO?
well…I want new management. And I didn’t ride on anybody’s retired tugboat, and I didn’t get any free dental work, and I didn’t accept any strange luggage or candy…and I’m not looking for anything extraordinary. Just enough police to make me feel safe-ish when I get on the new fangled train, decent schools to send my kids to (preferably within a 20 mile radius, thank you) and legislators that don’t feel they can get away with blatantly patronizing/lying to my neighbors and me.
And I’m actually moving because I don’t want to spend another year waiting for these things. I’m moving to a smaller community, where locals would laugh at an upstart from Chicago because they ‘take care uh things ’round here ‘mselves.” Or at least a community so small you have no place to hide when you make an ass of yourself, so you really try not to.
So what’s up? Am I…unknowingly bamboozled by the mercury slinging tooth fairies of the south end?
@Ratz #32
Sounds like fun. I’ve vacated my home so it “shows”. I’ve been kicked out of my home by a for sale sign. Outa WA. So its just you and Briktru in Westport. Save some of the single malt for me, and flip Jeeves the bird.
“Author: Ratzby
Comment:
To explain my wild fantasy:
Someone (obviously not you, but as Briktru) wrote a review of a restaurant in Westport. I tucked that away as nothing.
After your post about Westport, I searched Quarnstrom + Westport and came up with a boat moored there named Companion, owned by Fred and Mariana Quarnstrom.
This fits in nicely with my theory that the Quarnstroms are into taking people on little field trips, in exchange for them knocking the Mayor.
Too wild? I don’t think it’s much of a stretch.”
Dear Ratzby (AKA Neal)
I do not know what you drink but you should stop. Your fantasy world is getting me nervous.
We do not own nor have we ever owned a boat named Companion. Nor do we or have we ever had a boat moored in Westport. Nor do I or have I owned a retired tub boat.
I was a member of the retired tug boat association. They are majestic craft that have been a major part of marine history in our area. I have even served as a timer one year for the tug boat races in Eliot Bay. I simply do not have the time or knowledge to take care of such a craft.
I do enjoy reading about them and seeing them.
If I ever suggest you should come to Westport to take a ride on my boat, be very careful. I have an outboard but would never consider taking it out of Westport. Since I do not have a boat there, such an invitation could be an invitation to take a long walk off a short pier, which come to think of it is not a bad idea. Maybe the dunk in cold water would bring you to your senses.
Fred Quarnstrom, DDS
FAGD, FASDA, FICD, FACD,
CAADC, DABDA, DNBDA
U. of Washington 1964
Anes. Residency – Wash. Hospital Center 1966-7
General Dentist, Dentist Anesthesiologist
Dental Insurance Consultant
Author – Open Wider: Your Wallet Not Your Mouth,
A consumer’s guide to dentistry
“Do you support the jolly green giant, er..(cough, phlegm) ex-CUSE me! um, I meant…our Mayor? Or do you simply feel him unfairly pinheaded”
I don’t support or non-support our Mayor, but I think one hell of a lot of people have been bamboozled. Not for any reason but that folks want to belong to THE CROWD.
And quite a few are willing to go along if given a hint of the support that their fathers wouldn’t give them. That’s powerful stuff.
And by the way, the Mayor moved here when he was six years old, so all that Chicago shit doesn’t play with me.
I’m happy for you, ahow.
Wish you could have stuck around to see these assholes go down.
Maybe it’ll be a footnote in the Bellevue paper some day?
I harbor no ill will to the Eastside.
Here’s the link. Don’t think for a minute that this retired tug thing gets them off the hook. My sister and her husband also had a retired tug, and they’re retired from Microsoft. They often cruised beyond our Northern waters to relax.
http://www.retiredtugs.org/roster.htm
We have rich bastards south of I-90 that would like nothing less than to be your Masters. Is this OK with you?
Vanilla Ice? OK, STOP! Collaberate and LISTEN…
Neal (AKA Ratzby)
Must you use such foul language? It really breaks down any chance of rational interchange of opinions.
It tends to indicate you are under either great stress, under the effect of some mind altering substance or in fantasy land and in need of mental health intervention. I worry about your safety when I see such posts.
Fred Quarnstrom, DDS
“I worry about your safety when I see such posts. ”
Me too.
But you have to be quick to see such posts.
That’s the thing that breaks down any chance of rational interchange of opinions, isn’t it? Not really the foul language, which under the circumstances is entirely rational.
EASTSIDE??? I’d rather pass a kidney stone.
Wheeew! I went to bed and woke up to quite a mess here! Sat nights are becoming quite interesting. So thanks for the clarification on the the Chicago/six years old thing, didn’t know that and agree. I’m not of ‘native birth’ either…but ya lost me from there. A duel? Why would we duel? Over a slight upon hizzoner’s, er, honor? Hmmm, Ratz did you find another duffel in the park??? If so where’s the party next week? Seriously last night got weird. Foul language by itself doesn’t get me but combined with personalization and vitriol and I get squeemish… I guess you know something I don’t about folks or your duffel bag had bad s@!t in it.
Ahow, don’t bother with ratzby. He obviously was typing drunk, or is so infused with old hate and revenge that he cannot comment on any post without subverting it to his hidden agenda.
It’s really too bad that we cannot comment on the important topics that RVP posts without some irrelevant, hateful screed from ratzby about whatever conspiracy he’s come up with. It’s all opinion and backed up with nothing.
Don’t divert interesting dialogue with his hate anymore. Operation Ignore!
Oh, we’ll likely see him swing wildly like an old drunk man again. But I’d rather continue discussing the matters at hand. They are far more interesting.
So, nice job on the poker last night. If only the flop was kinder to me. Next time, let’s play in Canadian dollars…it will make the blind seem even bigger….
Briktru-
Egads (gulp), you invoke…the e-shun?
yikes
damn, too bad. He does make me laugh.
Ok so next game we’ll eCanamize…
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