Help Improve Bicycling in SE Seattle

Honestly, south east Seattle is a great place to ride in comparison to some other neighborhoods! People are generally more patient and treat you like another person instead of an alien trying to take over the planet.

Hey, great idea, Anon! add pedestrians too to Lake Washington Blvd
and of course give waivers to motorists who actually live there.

Biking on Rainier Avenue is one of the scariest things a human being can do; especially on a weekend evening. It would be great to make it less scary; and to somehow align bike-friendly paths/routes with Link.

We’re always charmed by how easy going motorists in Portland are, while bikes are whizzing in/out/around them. Not the same in SE Seattle.

The good thing is you can ride residential streets that will roughly parallel the main roads. There will be more turn and twists but it is absolutely worth the detours.

I bike from Columbia City to S Lake Union via various meandering routes. Usually take 45 to 50 minutes (about 25-30 to drive)

It can be hilly, but in Seattle you must not fear the hills. The hills make evening beers extra rewarding!

I agree that making Rainier safe for cycling would be the most important effort. If that where the only thing done, it would still be epic.

@SolvayGirl
Exactly!

Teach bikers the rules of the road. Inforce traffic regulation when bikers break them. They do not stop at stop signs or lights. They cut through traffic. They ride in packs bring traffic to a halt. When I am in my car, bikers scare the crap out of me. If you were to kill one you make the paper regardless of whose fault it is.

Bikers are the most arrogent self centered group of people I have ever met. They do not care for their safety and depend on me guessing what that are about to do and avoid them.

If anyone else took over the streets of downtown Seattle we would end up in jail. If 20 auto formed a pack and stopped traffice we would be arrested.

They are for the most part outlaws who regularly break the law, who regularly run stop signs and stop lights. I counted 40 on Seward Park drive, 37 ran a stop sign without even slowing down.

Count the number of cars on any of the routs used by bikers. 10 to 100 times as many cars as bikes with 2 or 3 people in a car 20 ot 300 times more rider than biker, yet bikers want to shut down the various arterials. Ad to this the ones who ride at night or in the rain with no lights and the miracle is fewer are not killed.

I think is is a bit pretentious to make demaolnds when they refuse to follow traffic regulations. Realize some of us are simply too old to climb hills on a bike to get to where we need to go. If I showed up at work smelling like a goat I would probably be fired. So it is not practical for some of us to use bikes.

Bien,
If bikers followed the law, stopped at stop lights and signs, stayed in single file, did not cut in and out of traffic we could all coexist on the same streets. You are suggesting because bikers will not follow the traffic laws, are obnoxious, and selfcentered, we should vacate streets for them.

That is a bit like saying some people like to rob banks. We should leave the doors and vaults open so they should have their way. I do not think that is the way it works.

Or since they pout, we should vacate streets and make our traffic even worse so they can ride 7 days a week. When Lake shore drive was vacated on Thursdays for bikers, I counted. There were 35 cars that had to detoure through neighborhood streets so one, I counted one bike that day, could saunter down Lake Shore drive.

Streets are public property and should be effectively and efficiently used. They should not be set a side of an anoited few who refuse to follow the city’s traffic laws.

here we go again. the reason cyclists don’t like Rainier ave is because unfortunately, MOTORISTS also do not obey the rules of the road.
Motorists speed – on Rainier avenue they are outrageous! they go through red lights. On Rainer they have set up automatic cameras because there are so many of them.
Old man, why is it that you can only see the infractions of cyclists while ignoring the vast majority of us who really do try to obey the law?
PS in Seattle, it is legal for cyclists to ride two abreast.
PPS, old man, I have friends in their 70′s (and one in his 80′s) who are still going up and down Seattle hills on their bikes.
PPPS You think people believe your skewed statistics?

Yours truly, 58 years old and riding up and down those hills
Mimi

Deja Vu, anyone? This discussion crops up every once in a while. I always say about the same thing. So those of you that have read it, well…sorry. I’m out of new thoughts. Anyway…

Old Dude-

I agree that it is incredibly frustrating to witness a pack of bicyclists careening through a four way stop without so much as slowing down (or even humoring me with guilty a waive.)

But I have often noticed my fellow (okay, hang with me here a minute) Asian drivers (car) doing about the same thing at the intersection of Ryan and Renton. Man, that intersection is the Axis of Evil. And well, I often spout an “Asian Driver, No Survivor” joke there…myself. AND I’M ASIAN (okay half, so only half funny.)

Aneeeway….

There are bad bicyclists, bad drivers…and I’m not a rabid cyclist defender here- I live on Rainier and have witnessed a cyclist RUN INTO MY PARKED CAR, GET UP AND TAKE OFF. Leaving a dent. So I have my gripes.

But plenty of people have tagged my side door with theirs in the parking lot of Target, too.

So as is always the case, there are jerks everywhere. In cars, on bikes, on foot, stuck at home (I have a hermit neighbor who is an A**.)

I’m not saying that failing to adhere to rules of the road in general should be overlooked for cyclists (I know a guy who got a speeding ticket on a bike!) If you want to use the road, you have to follow the rules designed for them.

But we also have to share. So getting all hysterical about the bad eggs only serves to fuel the coming Armageddon. I’m convinced that 2012 has something to do with motorized vs. non-motorized vehicular peoples. A very un-civil war is a commin’.

I love the idea of making a path along LWB, connecting to SP making our own little version of the Burke-Gilman. But the cost associated with bulldozing out the front yards of a bunch of people who dine with lawyers on a regular basis may be prohibitive…just sayin’. Or maybe they’ll love the addition of the trail, I guess it depends on whether they are “motorized” or “non-motorized” in persuasion.

Having said that-THERE WILL ALWAYS BE AN INTERSECTION BETWEEN THESE PEOPLE. The motorized/non-motorized, that is. Just ask the people who live on Edgewater or Riviera along the Burke Gilman! We’ll always have to cross paths somewhere, no matter how many trails we build. And as I’ve said before:

Whether you are of the Dual-Ped or 6-Cyl variety of folk, when you are out and about please treat the anonymous-by-helmet or behind-tinted-window personage about you…as your NEIGHBOR. Pretend you’ll have to back-peddle out of an uncomfortable gesticular exchange after looking closer and realizing you share eggs and fence.

And no, the cyclists are not going to get all the roads dedicated to their exclusive use. C’mon settle down. But nor are the car-drivers…

Dear Oldguy:

I understand your frustration, sir. I genuinely do. I am what is known to some as a “hard core endurance cyclists”. To others, that is “damned fool” or “just plain nuts”. I’m 59 years old. I rode over 12,000 miles last year on my bicycle. Of that 12,000 miles, over 5,000 of it took place between my home on South Beacon Hill and downtown Seattle where I am gainfully employed, pay my fair share of income taxes, sales taxes, AND property taxes as a homeowner. I vote and I also own two automobiles into which I place that wonderful substance a lot of folks use to decry the “fact” that cyclists don’t pay their fair share – GAS. Which is also taxed – HEAVILY, I might add. In addition to the 12,000+ miles I cycled last year, I also drove over 12,000 miles. I, like you, am one of those old guys. But unlike you, I made a decision several years ago to take up endurance cycling, both as a hobby and as a means of transportation to and from work, cycling to work 222 times last year while driving to work a total of 4 days. I offer this to you as a means of demonstration only that when it comes to cycling, I tend to be one of the folks who has been around the streets enough to actually know a little bit about what is going on out there. NOT just with bikes, but with cars, as well.

But back to your frustration. I really do share your frustration. I, too, see cyclists blow through stop signs and lights. I, too, see the guys (and gals) out there at night in the rain with no lights, no reflective clothing, no helmet, and weaving in and out of traffic as if there is no tomorrow. I see this when I’m driving and, like you, it scares the ever luvin’ crap out of me. I am so afraid of hitting one of these folks. It certainly won’t be the one I see that I hit, it will be the one I DON’T SEE!!! But please allow me to share a bit of a story with you.

Two weeks ago, I left my house, rode down Cloverdale to MLK, waited patiently for the light to change (these lights have really really gotten long haven’t they???) and crossed (eastbound) to the light at Renton Ave. S. There was a car in front of me at the light and a car waiting at the light traveling westbound. The light turned to green, the guy in front of me started through the intersection, as did the car coming at us. A car approaching from the south on Renton Ave. S. blew through the light which was now red for him without slowing. He totally failed to see the light. Guy in front of me barely missed getting broadsided by a car traveling 35+ mph. I watched as the offender struck the oncoming car, spun out of control and bounced up over a curb. Two days later, I was at the intersection of Beacon Ave. S. and Columbia Way and watched as a car traveling eastbound on Columbia ran the red light, nearly colliding with a car traveling south (right in front of me again) through a green light. A few days later, the same thing, only this time at the intersection of Beacon Ave. S. and S. Graham.

My friend, while I sincerely share your frustration, I would offer to you that cyclists are not the only ones who fail to stop at stop signs and lights, and certainly are NOT the only ones who “selectively obey” laws. While I am certain that you, a man of honesty and integrity and a consistently compliant citizen would never do something like exceed the speed limit, change lanes without signaling, fail to yield the right of way, drive a motor vehicle after consuming alcoholic beverages (or OTHER drugs), use the horn as a weapon in an effort to intimidate, harrass or otherwise cause disruption, intentionally swerve out of your way to come as close to a bicycle as possible without actually hitting them, accelerate and swere as you approach a cyclist on a rainy day, intentionally finding the puddle to see how big of a spray wall you can make in order to inundate them (seriously – this happens a lot), yell obsenities or engage in other rude, offensive and threatening behaviors, there are some who do. As a matter of fact, I can pretty safely say that if I am on the freeway (or even many of our local surface streets, driving the speed limit, I will be passed by a MAJORITY of drivers, not a minority, driving well over the speed limit. And since you are a 100% compliant citizen, I’m sure you have experienced this. I’m certain, in your long life as a motor vehicle operator that you have undoubtedly witnessed first hand at least a few times the ‘lane diver’ who just has to be ahead of YOU. As they cut back into your lane, you probably have to react by braking hard in order to avoid an accident. That is what responsible drivers do when non-responsible drivers (and I would venture to say there are a LOT of them, not a few) do stupid stuff.

Well, sir, as a 59 year old man, 31 years married and father of two raised sons, I value my life and attempt to ride as safely as I can out here on the streets. As a taxpaying, voting and actively participating member of my civilized and progressive society, I choose to make our streets safer for all of our citizens. I have voted consistently for the street improvements which make our intersection crossings safer for the blind, the wheelchair bound, the deaf and also to make the streets safer for our cyclists. And not only did I vote for those street improvements, I paid for them through the bond issues, local, state and federal taxes and charitible contributions.

As one old guy to another, I encourage you to be patient with your fellow citizen, do everything you can to take care of your health so you can live a long and fruitful life and understand that for a lot of us out there on the street, whethere we’re in cars, on bikes, on crutches or walking our dogs, we’re just doing the same thing. We just do it differently than you. It is a changing world, sir, and we are agents of change whether we choose to be or not. I hope you and I, working together can be a part of positive and meaningful change in our lifetime that will make our world, our country, our state and our city a better place to live.

And if you see an old guy out there on a bike struggling up a hill, riding a black and red bike with silver fenders, wave at me when you go by, and after you’ve passed me, tap the brake lights or give a short beep but please don’t blare the horn as you are approaching my rear wheel. If you do, it may scare the crap out of me and cause me to fall down. At my age, I can’t afford many more crashes.

Respectfully,

Donald Boothby

Rainier Avenue isn’t even safe for car travel or walking, let alone bike travel. Steer clear of Rainier. My new motto.

I noted the idea of taking property along Lake Washington Bulevard for a bike path.

Did you all realize there is a plan being slowly implemented to return the park property along this street to what it was in the 1700s. Conifer trees, brush, bush, blackberries, Devil’s club, thistles, poison oak will replace grass and there will be no water access.

The park along the lake will be returned to nature. You probably will not be able to see the lake. Seafair will have to go someplace else. Trees will be allowed to fall into the lake and they will stay there. Logs are not being place in the water at several sites to serve as a breakwater but they also will serve as child crushers when they bounce around with waves endangering swimmers.

A few will be able to enjoy a walk through the new forest but the thousands who not use the park along Lake Washington Bvd. to picnic, fish, play, swim will be shut out by the underbrush and fallen trees. Of course bikes will not be allowed either.

Look at the areas south of the bridge and north of Leshi where this is already being done. Is this what you want to happen from Madrona to Seward Park

I appreciate this thread – and particularly enjoyed Donald’s comments. i agree with many on here who are frustrated with both the poor judgments of many cyclists AND drivers who just can’t seem to share the road. one major concern i have biking on the roads in SE seattle are the “sharrows” – i feel as though they make things worse and more confusing for everyone. both the driver and the cyclist feel entitlement, which leads to even less “sharing.” i think they should get rid of the whole idea of sharrows and figure something else out. there is a good article about it here: http://crosscut.com/2009/09/03/transportation/19210/

if you agree, mention it in the survey and maybe we can find a better solution (i.e., more designated bike lanes).

I like Rainier the way it is.

Like it or not we have many people who must move North and South every day. Seattle is a group of half a million people squished between the Sound and the Lake.

Many of us go places not connected to light rail or bus so we have to take our cars.

The freeway is jam packed much of the day. If they made a second N-S freeway it would wipe out a lot of the places we live and work. The alternative is the use the major N-S streets.

If we keep closing lanes, the traffic will only get worse. Is it wise management to take public property now used by many and restrict it for the use of a very few?

I may have posted this idea here before, but it seems relevant again. Portland implemented an interesting idea that creates bike friendly through-ways using residential streets. As I understand it, residential streets that are designated as “bike boulevards” are open to cars, but cars have to make right turns off of these roads every few blocks. This allows easy car access for people who live on the streets, but creates a disincentive to use them as alternatives to arterials. Drivers expect lots of bikes on these boulevards and bicyclists tend to use them more than other roads. This would take some planning, and yes the hills make this a challenge down here, but I think it could help.

If the city were to move towards improving Rainer (or any other major roadway) in an effort to make the roadway safer for bicyclist and pedestrians, whether it be bicycle boulevards, cycle tracks, road diet, or additional bike lanes, or simple crosswalks, the business community needs to rally around these improvement otherwise the city will never do it. Unfortunately, it seems the Safeways, the QFC’s, the Bartell’s and Walgreens, and quite a few small and local business owners who think they are dependent on parking lots, will be reluctant to support any perceived reduction in car mobility, parking or ability for someone to zip in and zip out of their business. We need to work with them to somehow explain (and hear their concerns) that additional bike lanes won’t impact business or that a crosswalk 1 block down the street won’t impact their business. The resistance to improve Rainier or any other major street will be huge because business groups will not want to take the risk of losing their clientele. I personally do not think a freeway (exaggeration) through Rainier Valley is good for business and that if these businesses were more accessible to cyclist and pedestrians it would improve the business climate, a lot.

As a bike commuter for six months, I’m still rather new and a little bit wobbly about it all, though it is great fun. Thank you ahow and Donald for your, dare I say it, fair and balanced comments. Many of those who rail against bikers fail to realize that we’re more than likely car drivers TOO. We see both sides of the coin and just happen to like it both ways. Having our cake and eating it too (except for all those darn taxes we pay!).

Motorists aren’t the only threat and reason why I don’t ride my bicycle on Lake Washington Boulevard and Seward Park. Many of the so-called “elite” cyclists who race along the boulevard are intimidating and impatient with recreational cyclists who have the audacity not to compete at their level. The high-maintenance cyclists debase those of us recreational riders who have the audacity to stop at stop signs and exhibit their frustration and exasperation when they have to weave between what they perceive as lesser riders. They heap as much consideration and care to pedestrians and dog walkers who dare to exhibit their rights to legally cross the street. Apparently, yielding to foot traffic does not apply to some cyclists.

Even more intriguing, they drive and park their SUVs in our neighborhoods so they can train on our streets that they treat as their private training area. How is driving your gas-guzzling car to Southeast Seattle helping the planet? So much for being “green.”

I know several people who won’t ride on Lake Washington Boulevard because of these individuals, some of whom are undoubtedly members of the Cascade Bicycle Club. These aggressive cyclists take the fun and joy out of riding your bike. Until the CBC attempts to rein some of these offenders in, the CBC lacks credibility in speaking about bicycle and pedestrian safety.

How about a road for each of us? Lake Wash – Walkers & Runners, Rainier Ave – we can bus it or bike with Mayor Mike, MLK – We can drive or lightrail

@kdb: The only way to accommodate bikes safely on Rainier is to put Rainier on a “road diet” and reduce traffic lanes. If this were done, it would probably follow the pattern elsewhere in the city where four lanes of traffic plus a turn lane are turned into two lanes of traffic, a turn lane, and bike/pedestrian improvements. Rainier is very heavily trafficked by both cars and buses – literally tens of thousands of trips per day of cars and many, many buses. Even if improvements allowed hundreds of bikes to use Rainier, thousands of drivers and bus commuters would pay the price (traffic back-ups, frustration, time delays, additional gas burned, additional carbon outputs). Due to the volume on Rainier, buses would back up traffic without bus pull-outs (which can’t be constructed without crossing dedicated bike lanes). These back-ups happen already with four lanes of traffic, but would be nightmarish with just one lane in each direction. I don’t think spending millions of dollars for the benefit of a few hundred bike riders each day is worth it – Rainier is too busy, has too many buses and it a hugely important arterial for the entire southeast quadrant of the city (exacerbated by the Valley’s unique geography which creates a narrow north/south corridor). It’s not a fair or reasonable trade-off to benefit a few bike riders by harming thousands of drivers and bus commuters. Instead, bikes should use alternate routes (the side-street solution from Portland sounds great) and everyone should accept that Rainier needs to remain primarily a major car/bus transit corridor.

And “safer travel” is not guaranteed by the addition of bike lanes, nor is not necessarily better for business if it means fewer overall visits or trips to local businesses due to reduced vehicular access.

I agree that the Valley needs improvements for bikes and bike safety, but destroying Rainier for cars and buses is not the answer.

mimi
The southern part of Rainier is primarily residential; there are few businesses to be disturbed. It is also not as heavily trafficked as the part from Seward Park Ave (Mayas) to downtown or the Central District. I have to drive that route every afternoon to pick up my daughter’s high school carpool. It already takes me 25-30 minutes in jam-packed traffic starting at 3:15. I can’t imagine what it would be like with only one lane in each direction on Rainier.
And please don’t tell me the kids should be biking or taking the bus. A bus trip would take them close to an hour. They’ve got tons of homework and other commitments (music lessons, etc.). They need that extra half hour of time in the evening. And, as noted by many in this thread, a bike trip would not be the safest.

Specifically, this is the route I’m talking about in the above comment! There’s good bike trails in Tukwila, and good destinations in Seattle – and you can tell from the hills, not much better way to cross that ridge.

Great idea Patrick!

It’s too bad that we would delay or never make improvements to Rainier because of the perceived negative effect of adding bike lanes would result in traffic back-ups, frustration, time delays, additional gas burned, and additional carbon outputs. But in reality, if the motoring community were concerned about all those items, they would simply slow down which would help alleviate most of your/their gripes and in the process, make it safer for cyclists and pedestrians.
So, it seems there is something else that motorists or business owners dislike about bike lanes…is it that they don’t want to be inconvenienced by my presence i.e., they may have to slow down or change lanes to get around me?

As a bicycle commuter, it isn’t very much fun being relegated to 2nd class citizen (or rather, 2nd class commuter). Being pushed onto side streets w/ hills and having to bike several miles out of the way adds around 15-20 minutes to my ride everyday. It’s frustrating knowing that Rainier is the most logical route to downtown for me but that safety reasons (not the law) is the reason I don’t take it.

I hope RVP holds a forum on this topic (bicycling in SE) and how to come together to improve the safety of all modes of travel using LWB, Rainer, MLK and all the side streets used by a growing number of cyclists and pedestrians. I think it would be well attended and it would be a great opportunity for each group to present differing perspectives and counter the perceived (negative) effects of cyclist’s and bike lanes on the roadway.

Safety on Rainier Ave is bigger than just bikes and would be a great topic for a forum. I have concerns about Rainier as a Driver, Pedestrian, and Biker.

What are our requirements for a improved Rainier? What are the pain points? If the community can come up with some tenets for how we would safety improved, we could drive long term improvement. Maybe I’m daft but here are some ideas…

Designate a Bus/Bike only lane? with bus turnouts where possible?

Reduce the number of entry/exit points for parking lots and non-through streets?

Physically divide the street to prevent left turns, except at designated points? Similar to MLK after Link.

More Crosswalks? Traffic Circles to replace traffic lights?

Maybe this has already been discussed ad nauseum?

For those who are bikers, please enter any “incident” info you have at the bikewise site (http://www.bikewise.org/). There is very little info on things that happen south of the 90. More info will help get more resources.

@Old Guy
“Should 129 cars and multiple buses be delayed so one bike has its own lane.”

I also regularly drive Beacon (after the 39 got chopped, and I stopped taking the bus out of laziness). Bikes don’t have their own lane, but parked cars bring Beacon effectively to one lane each direction, at least south of Columbian Way.

I know it’s a bitch, especially on Fridays when traffic on Beacon is halted because of traffic on I-5, and the people trying to turn right on Columbian Way are stalled trying to get to it. But that’s cars, not bikes. And maybe it would flow better if the car drivers would keep their eyes on the road instead of counting other cars, busses, and bikes.
Think?